Tuesday, February 19, 2013

"Hyper-Grace" is True!

Grace is God's favor for His children, it is His opinion of us, it is God's love for us. To use the term "hyper-grace" in a derogatory way is very very sad. God's love passes all knowledge (Ephesians 3:19). The Father loves us as much as He loves His Son Jesus & Jesus loves us as much as the Father loves Him (John 17:23,15:9).

This post is a response to Michael Brown's Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace. Italics are from Mr. Brown's original post & my response follows them.

One of the foundational doctrines of the hyper-grace message is that God does not see the sins of his children, since we have already been made righteous by the blood of Jesus and since all of our sins, past, present and future, have already been forgiven.
Hebrews 10:17 says when you enter the New Covenant God promises to "never remember your sins & lawless deeds." Romans 8:9 says, "We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit because the Spirit of God lives in us." 1 John 3:9, 5:18 say a Christian's spirit cannot sin. 2 Corinthians 5:16 says God "no longer identifies anyone according to the flesh." Romans 4:8 says, "The Lord does not take sin into account." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says, "God does not credit people with sin." It isn't a matter of if God sees my sins. I no longer have sins, I am solely identified by God as a perfect spirit though that spirit does live in this temporary "tent" of flesh. God is not blind to how the deeds of my flesh affect myself & others but He does not need to charge me or even my flesh with sin for our relationship to work, the above scriptures make that very clear.

That means that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin
That is true. There isn't a single scripture that says He does. The only time conviction & the Holy Spirit are mentioned with the believer is when the Spirit convicts (convinces) them of their righteousness.

that believers never need to confess their sins to God
This is true. There isn't a scripture that says they should. People assume 1 John 1:9 was not only written for Christians but also that it is somehow a mandatory daily practice of the Christian life though we see nothing in the text suggesting that it is something that needs to be repeated nor are there any other scriptures even seemingly telling Christians to confess their sins to God. See this page for over a dozen posts looking at 1 John 1:9.

and that believers never need to repent of their sins
Never do we see the phrase "repent of sin" in the New Testament. Unless you incorrectly assume that the Greek word behind repent has the concept of sin in its definition, which it doesn't, there is no reason to think repentance (changing your mind) regards sin at all.

God sees them as perfect in his sight.
He sure does.
"The sacrifice of Christ makes those who draw near to God perfect" (Hebrews 10:1).
"By one offering Jesus has perfected forever those who are made holy" (Hebrews 10:14).
"The spirits of righteous men have been made perfect" (Hebrews 12:22-23).

One hyper-grace teacher wrote this: “When God looks at me, He doesn’t see me through the blood of Christ, He sees me—cleansed! Likewise, He sees us as holy and righteous. He sees us, and He loves what He sees!” Really? Always? 24-7? God always loves what he sees when he looks at his people? Yes, he loves us, but does he always love what he sees?
If you can't separate your flesh's actions from your identity you are under the law & don't know what it means to be born again. This question, "does God always love what He sees" is down-right silly. If your child does something wrong & you look at him or her after it do you love who you see? Of course! Because you love your child. The VERY REASON you seek to help them live their life better is because you love them. The author is just over-doing it to make an argument. God sees us & always loves us when He sees us. Whether He loves our behavior or not does not change how He sees us. So yes He always loves WHO He sees because He sees us as who we truly are, His dearly loved children.

Did Paul, writing on behalf of the Lord, love what he saw when he warned the Galatians that they had fallen from grace and become trapped in legalism?
No but God didn't love IT because IT hurt THEM. Love is not self-seeking, God is love. God didn't love IT because He loved THEM. You are tying behavior to identity again, almost saying, "If God doesn't like what you do that changes how much He likes you." That is a graceless idea. If He "didn't like WHO He saw" when He looked at His children He wouldn't care about them destroying themselves by forgetting about His love & putting themselves under the law. I don't think God likes what you've written Mr. Brown but that is because He loves you & wants to help you. What you believe or do doesn't change how much God loves you.

Did James, also writing as a servant of the Lord, love what he saw when he rebuked his readers for being “friends of the world” and “adulterers and adulteresses”?  And if he doesn’t see our sins, why did the Lord discipline believers in Corinth because of their sins (see 1 Cor. 11:27-32)? (And pay careful attention to 1 Corinthians 11:32, “When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”)
Why assume all of these people are Christians? The article's #1 flawed assumption: "Christians are the only ones written to in the scriptures." James outright says that his letter is written to the "12 tribes" & Paul twice calls for the Corinthians to "examine themselves to see if they are of the faith," & one of those times is in 1 Cor. 11. Looking at the assemblies addressed in Revelation, if we drop the assumption that they are Christians, we can easily see that it is most likely they are non-Christians. Same thing with the friends of the world in James. See this post for more as to why this portion of 1 Cor 11 is not aimed at Christians.

And if the Lord doesn’t see our sins, why did James write that if a believer who was sick had also sinned, God would forgive him when he healed him (see James 5:14-15)?
Follow this up with James 5:16 & you'll see. It is talking about relational forgiveness among the brothers. If they apologize to one another there will be forgiveness among them.

If Jesus doesn’t see our sins, why did he say to the church in Ephesus, “Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love” (Rev. 2:4, NIV)?
This is a generalization of the assembly historically. Like how the Old Testament spoke of a generation that had "not served God like their fathers had." Some of the people here were saved & some weren't. Walk into ANY church today & there is a 99.999999% chance not everyone there is saved. Why oh why do we assume that every assembly in the New Testament that a letter was addressed to consisted of 100% Christians? Even Jesus spoke about there being sheep & goats, wheats & tares. If this verse were to Christians it would simply mean that they had forgotten their first love, meaning they forgot that Christianity is to live knowing God FIRST LOVED us. The word "against" in the verse doesn't mean "I'm mad & charging you with sin." This word could be translated dozens of ways. It could even mean something like, "I have this leaning against you, causing you a great burden, that you have forgotten that I am the one who loved you first."

And why did he says this to the church in Sardis? “I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” (Rev. 3:1-3)
The only deed/work required before God is to trust in Jesus. Jesus said it Himself in John 6:28-29, "The only work God wants from you is to trust in Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent." If you don't trust Jesus you are not saved. Also, no Christian is EVER dead. God gives ETERNAL life. Scripture wide the word repent is used almost exclusively as an invitation to salvation, to change your mind to trust in Jesus. Likewise people are told to "obey" the gospel which is to be saved. The "deeds" being "incomplete" meant many of the people there were not saved, they did not know God.

If the Lord always “sees us as holy and righteous” and always “loves what He sees,” why did he rebuke the believers in Laodicea, telling them that they were “wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked” (Rev. 3:17)? Why didn’t he say, “I see you as beautifully clothed, healthy, and rich?" If he was so happy with what he saw in Laodicea, why did he threaten to spit the congregation out of his mouth (see Rev. 3:16)?
Why? Because they weren't believers. The doctrine/assumption of "because the word 'church' appears it must exclusively be talking to Christians" causes you to throw out the rest of what the New Testament says about Christians & how God sees them. It says the Laodiceans don't have the "white garments" of righteousness. Jesus is even pictured as outside of the assembly knocking, wanting to get in. If you are a Christian Jesus is already in! I mean people even use the "stand at the door & knock" thing in evangelism yet we interpret this as being written only to Christians? Also note that these messages to the assemblies talks about the person who "overcomes" being the ones that are saved & share in Christ's riches. Elsewhere in scripture "overcoming" is a synonym for "having faith." If you are saved you have already overcome.

And if believers never need to repent of their sins, why did Jesus say, “Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent” (Rev. 3:19)? And how interesting it is that the same Greek word used in John 16:8—where Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of its sins—is the word used by the Lord in Revelation 3:19 (translated there as “rebuke”; and note Rev. 3:22: this is the Spirit speaking!).
Again it does not say "be earnest & repent of your sins." And again it is most likely not aimed at Christians, even if it were it would just mean "change your minds." This Greek word for "convict" & "rebuke" simply means "to convince of the truth." It does not picture a charging of guilt, like the English word convict does. God teaches His children the truth, He leads them out of falsehood, He corrects their false beliefs.

It is because God loves us that he rebukes us (not condemns us)
Condemn & convict in English are direct synonyms. You have to create a lie in your mind that tells you, "when (I think) God convicts me & makes me feel guilty I am not being condemned." Condemn & convict mean virtually the same thing.

it is because sin is so destructive that he calls us to turn from it.

It is because sin is so destructive that by His death on the cross He made it powerless against us. Only when we put the knife in sin's hand by believing that it can destroy us will we be destroyed by it.

This is the goodness of God, and this is what grace does, as Paul wrote in Titus 2:11-12, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.”
Taken by itself this is totally true but the whole paradigm of, God has to charge you with sin or slap the label of sin on you or "convict" you of sin does not belong anywhere near this scripture from Titus or anywhere near grace itself because it is not true. Grace, which is literally God's loving opinion of us(!), teaches us to walk away from these bad things, not because He shames us for not doing it fast enough but because His grace is His unconditional love. That means He loves us apart from our actions, LIKE A TRUE FATHER WOULD! That perfect love, that does not have to focus on our faults to help us grow, is what accomplishes what Titus 2:11-12 says. Nothing else works in the long run, it may seem to work for a while but "turning from sin" a billion times will never produce the results that a one time "changing of your mind" about how God views you & how He has TAKEN OUR SINS AWAY will.

How tragic it is today when God’s people mistake the voice of His correcting love for the condemning voice of Satan
Satan is the accuser. An accuser is by definition, "someone who charges another with a shortcoming, error, or wrongdoing; someone who ascribes guilt or blame." Charging someone with sin condemns them. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus & there are no sins laying on a Christian because Jesus has taken them all off. God can love & correct someone to help them out of harmful behaviors without having to lay guilt on them, that is in fact the only way God does it.

and how sad it is when they resist the purifying work of the Spirit, claiming that there’s nothing to purify since God no longer sees their sins.
What did Jesus say the Spirit would do? He said it would testify of Him. But Mr. Brown's view of God's purifying work, is apparently far more about a self-centered focus on sin & the flesh than it is about Jesus & how He loves us apart from our flesh's faults. His idea is a walk by the flesh & shame labeled as a walk by the Spirit. But the real way the Holy Spirit purifies our minds, beliefs, & bodies is by testifying of Christ, His love for us, & His finished work on our behalf.

Has He justified us by the blood of Jesus? Absolutely. Has He has set apart as holy to Himself? Without a doubt. Has He called us to be His sons and daughters, all by His love and grace? Yes He has. And it is because of these things that Paul wrote, “Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God” (2 Cor. 7:1).
1 Cor 6 speaks of "now being the time to be saved" & Paul saying why He is trustworthy. He then tells what God promises for those who trust Him. 2 Cor. 7:1 refers back to several verses before regarding being yoked with unbelievers. Paul twice encouraged the Corinthians to "Examine yourselves to see whether or not you are in the faith" (1 Corinthians 11:28 & 2 Corinthians 13:5). The rest of Paul's writings make it clear that Christians are already pure & holy in Spirit. So here Paul is inviting the unbelievers into the promises of God, in 2 Corinthians 6:1 he urges those who haven't to "receive the grace of God" & those who have to live in that grace. A Christian's spirit can never be contaminated, it is as 1 Corinthians 6:17 says, "one spirit with God." If it could be contaminated then God Himself could be contaminated thus this must be, as the context supports, an invitation for people to be saved, to purify their spirits once & for all.

What a beautiful, lofty calling. Don’t let anyone steal it from you.
It is a calling to be saved & purified by God, not by your own self-effort. That is beautiful & too lofty for us to accomplish. God finishes His work in you. But if you follow Mr. Brown's idea of the calling, that Christians are bound to perform after salvation, & you don't let someone "steal that concept from you," you are stuck in bondage & blinding yourself to God's true love by your constant & self-centered sin management.

Fruit Inspection
Now for my experience. How were the fruits of the Spirit coming out of my life living under the way Mr. Brown claims things should be vs. living under the way I believe things should be?

When I believed God charged me with sin, identified me with my sin, that I had to confess my sins to him, & that I had to try to turn from my sins..
the love I felt from God & for God was totally based on how much I thought I had sinned, joy was seldom, peace was fleeting, I was miserable & filled with shame, & I had very little faithfulness & almost no self-control.

Now that I no longer believe God charges me with sin thus I have no need to have a sin counter in my head..
The love I feel from God & the love I have for God is indescribably more abundant than ever before, joy floods my heart at any moment I turn my thoughts to God, my peace is unshakable concerning my spiritual life & 99% of the rest of my life, I never "run from God," I never feel guilt or shame or condemnation, I have self-control because I now know my self is my spirit thus I walk by the spirit.

If you have some sort of complaint claiming I'm letting my experience interpret scripture
1. I've showed you what the scripture says above without relating it to my experience.
2. Show me a scripture that says not to do that. Show me one scripture that says, "Don't let your experience change how you interpret the scriptures." If you try to use the "heart is deceitfully wicked" one, yeah that pre-cross scripture, visit the New Testament for more on that because our hearts are where the Holy Spirit dwells & it is also where God pours out His love (see 2 Corinthians 4:6, Acts 15:9, Philippians 4:6, & Romans 5:5).

Since Jesus truly is the Prince of Peace it should be impossible for me to have more peace "living a lie" than living according to the truth. So based on the scriptures & based on experience, both of living the way Mr. Brown suggests Christians should live & living how I now think Christians should live, I conclude that "hyper-grace" is 100% true.
Hyper-Grace is Hyper-Love & It is Awesome

Mr. Brown directly countered some of my post above in his book Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message. Here is my response with necessary clarifications.


  1. A former pastor went so far as to deride those who love grace as "grace-happy" (as if it's a bad thing). On that note I wrote him a letter and fled his teaching. Soon after his church, marriage and family fell apart.

  2. I've never seen such a horrible interpretation of scripture. You've taken classical interpretation of scripture and twisted it to make it say what you want it to say. Why is it so difficult to take scripture at face value these days?

    1. By "face value" do you mean "Don't pay attention to what the context says or what the rest of scripture says. Just let it make us double minded by seeming contradictions instead of figuring out what it really says"?

      If you decide to trust fully in the "classic interpretation" then you reject God teaching you Himself. God is alive & in you, let Him teach you what the scripture says instead of trusting in men to interpret it for you. If trusing your heart enough to hear what the Spirit wants to teach you scares you then bottom line you don't trust that God can teach you & you will be lead around in the dark by other blind men.

  3. Dude I love letting the Lord teach me Himself from the Word but I don't believe that there is some "new revelation" about the grace of God that many of the great men of God that have gone on before me failed to see. I don't reinterpret scripture to make it fit my theology as many in your camp are doing these days. Are you saying that all the other great teachers that I've learned from through the years (Tozer, Spurgeon, Lake, Finney, Chambers etc.) are blind men whose teachings are leading people into darkness?

    I choose to believe what the NT teaches about holy living and Spirit empowered grace and I'm not afraid to admit that I'm still working out my salvation with fear and trembling (I'm sorry is that scripture). I love God and I hate sin and I believe He hates it too, but praise be to God for He gives me abundant grace to walk free from sin, not live in it!

    1. I don't believe it is a "new revelation" either. The revelation is clearly in scripture.

      You ever pay attention to the context of the "fear & trembling" thing? Here's the very next verse, "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

  4. Dr Browns major error is to say that the spirit God gives us can sin! Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. He also assumed that if you believe in spirit, soul and body .you also freely embrace sin.

    also Dr Brown says that those who believe in the atonement of one sacrifice for all time of a spirit sealed is Gnosticism needs to reexamine what Gnosticism is- it is the belief that Jesus did not die physically!

  5. This disgusts me, what happened to being sober minded? Do you even remember the fruits of the spirit? Love joy peace patience SELF CONTROL KINDNESS GOODNESS FAITFULNESS GENTLENESS.you seem to understand the first four but have lost the last four this foul teaching must be stopped. So I quote 1john myself, as he fought the secessionist I will fight you. You may call me a Pharisee but the Pharisees new the bible, and in this I believe you have more in common with them as they held a too high a standard you have gone too far. There is no new teaching and there never will be or else we need to revise the cannon. Anyone who teaches this is teaching a foul doctrine with NO SELFCONTROL in themselves. As James said works follow faith they are evidence of that faith. So I end with this no man woman or child can claim this and be a Christian you are false and devil in sheeps clothing. Be silent.

    1. What are you talking about? I specifically talked about SELF CONTROL

      Because you're just now coming across a teaching that makes you think it is new thus since you've never heard of it you refuse to consider it?

      You're being silly & jumping to conclusions. I can only put so much in one post, & this post is quite long already. Are you really telling me that I'm not considering kindness & gentleness while saying to me "I'll fight you" & calling me "a devil" based on 1 blog post?

  6. All I can say is that you have confused The Finished Work of Christ in Justification with the Work of the Holy Spirit in Sanctification. Christ alone provided us with salvation through Justification. God accepted us as who we were during salvation. We have been justified and declared as positionally righteous in the sight of God. Then the next step is for the Holy Spirit to work within us so that we will become more like Christ. The grace of salvation and the grace of transformation are two different aspects of the grace and mercy of God.

    1. We are spiritually righteous in our identity (new man/new creation) not just positionally righteous.

      Yes there is sanctification & the renewing of our mind but our spirit has been perfected forever.

      Hebrews 10:14 says, "by one offering Jesus has perfected forever those who are being made holy." How can we be perfected forever yet continue to be made holy? If we're already perfect forever that would mean we're already holy & we are. But this is talking about our spirits being perfected forever & our flesh/mind continuing to "be made holy."
      "The spirits of righteous men have been made perfect" (Hebrews 12:22-23).

      I'm not confusing these things. I am addressing an aspect of salvation, what being born again actually means, that is largely never taught on.

  7. Good luck with that stuff. You are walking out the very error that John confronted in his letter 1 John.

    1. One error addressed in 1 John was that sin never existed, thus his sacrifice was pointless. But I'm saying Jesus "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26) & no longer charges people with it. There's a mountain of scriptures quoted above that address this reality.

      You may actually want to consult the rest of scripture as to how to interpret 1 John.

      1 John 1:8 says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." But look at the gospel of John, Jesus Himself talks about it being possible for people to "have no sin."

      John 9:39-41 "Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, YOU WOULD HAVE NO SIN; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains."

      Read this post for my explanation of how these scriptures mesh

  8. Thank you for showing I Am sin FREE! It makes me free do All I want and not lose the love of god!
    I am free from the bondage of sin!! I can go do all those things my flesh wants to do and never be held accountable because jesus died for my sins! I dont need to fight off adultery or my urge for pedophila because it is no longer a sin. Thank you for opening my eyes and showing it is ok to be a drunken abuser. I am glad to see you live in Indianapolis too! Thank you!

    1. Here are some things I said in the post that you must have missed.

      "God is not blind to how the deeds of my flesh affect myself & others."
      "The very reason God seeks to help His children live their life better is because He loves them."
      "If God "didn't like WHO He saw" when He looked at His children He wouldn't care about them destroying themselves by forgetting about His love & putting themselves under the law."
      "God loves you & wants to help you."
      "God didn't love the legalism of the Galatians because IT hurt THEM."
      "God wants us to pursue relational forgiveness among the brothers."
      "God teaches His children the truth, He leads them out of falsehood, He corrects their false beliefs."
      "Grace, which is literally God's loving opinion of us(!), teaches us to walk away from ungodliness and worldly passions."
      "God can love & correct someone to help them out of harmful behaviors without having to lay guilt on them, that is in fact the only way God does it."
      "The real way the Holy Spirit purifies our minds, beliefs, & bodies is by testifying of Christ, His love for us, & His finished work on our behalf."

  9. It seems to me grace to some means to go and sin and not worry about it? That's not what grace is about if you are truly saved you will want to turn away from your sin yes the flesh will continue to sin its the flesh! We were born into sin so naturaly we are going to sin but when you see through the eyes of god and see how he adores us and loves us unconditonaly we change our minds about sin and stear away from it because of his love grace is not a ticket to sin! Grace is the pleasure knowing god loves us no matter what and to show the world its free and not to be earned! AMEN micheal my brother!

  10. Yeah that means I go sleep with any guy I want because I am under grace! I am 17 and was saved a year and a half ago. So Jesus will accept me if I sleep with guys for money. That is so freeing! I can still smoke pot right? Wow this grace thing is too cool!

    1. So you think a father who refuses to disown his ignorant or struggling or rebellious child is a bad father?

      If your actions make God stop "accepting" you then He is not a good Father & He doesn't love you.

      Yes you can do whatever you want & God will still love you because that is what good fathers do! Good fathers also try to help walk you out of harmful behaviors.

  11. This is a terrible article. I would keep you in prayer.

    Please read John 16:8-9. One of the work of the Holy Spirit is to make the believer aware of his own sin. This is fundamental to understand why Paul felt the way he felt in Romans 7. The Holy Spirit shows us our sin for many reasons. The most common is to repent from it and be more holier than yesterday. For without holiness, no one can see God.

    This is in regards to this paragraph:

    That means that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin
    That is true. There isn't a single scripture that says He does. The only time conviction & the Holy Spirit are mentioned with the believer is when the Spirit convicts (convinces) them of their righteousness.

    1. You stop a verse short & you miss what Jesus was saying.
      John 16:8-10, "When the Spirit comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because THEY do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and YOU (disciples) no longer see Me"
      Jesus only says that the spirit convicts those who do not believe in Jesus (lost people) of sin. Jesus then says that the spirit convicts His disciples of righteousness, a play on words meaning he declares us "guilty of not being guilty."

      Look up the word convict in the dictionary. It means "charge with guilt." An accuser charges someone with guilt. Satan is the accuser of the brethern, not the Holy Spirit. Convict & condemn are synonyms, there is no condemnation in Christ (Romans 8:1).

    2. Hey Michael,

      Thanks for the reply. I am the guy that posted above. I wanted to post with my google account because I do believe you deserve the respect to know at least who you are talking to.

      I want to say first that your reply above is correct. I looked up the word Convict in the greek and it means the following Elegcho:

      to convict, refute, confute

      You are correct Michael when you said above that the convicting of sins is not meant for believers but for the "world" or non believers. I want to thank you for showing me that. However, I don't believe in your point that the only time a believer gets convicted by the Holy Spirit is in regards to their righteousness.

      I believe this verse but can be viewed as the following:
      Since Jesus can no longer be seen with them, Jesus will send his Holy Spirit to be WITH them and IN them. In which will be their righteousness that will give them power and boldness to live a life as Jesus lived. They do not have a testimony to prove to people what they really are, since they are fisherman and layman's. Who would believe them? What proof do they have to tell people about Jesus Christ? Unless they receive a 'righteousness ' not of their own but of God. Through the Holy Spirit, His work and presence will be seen as they witness throughout Asia, starting in Jerusalem .

      But this is a different topic of discussion :-). For now, let's try and focus on your post.

    3. You made a valid point, it is my fault to give such a thoughtless reply using one verse. Mind you also an incorrect one :-). However, I still don't believe on the points you made. I'll attempt to show my understanding of the scripture in hope that Jesus name will not be profane but lifted up and glorified as he deserves to be. He died for all of us by His own blood. I know both you and I want to honor that.

      In light of keeping this in "context". Here's why I don't believe you missed out (Pardon for my weak grammar, English is my second language).

      1) A non believer is convicted of his sins through the Holy Spirit(John 16:10), this is true, but when a believer sins, is he convicted of sin or not convitected since he is covered under the blood of Christ?
      Lets look at a classic example of David. He was believer, correct? Did he not have the Holy Spirit in him that allowed him to prophecy about Jesus? Was he not saved? When he sinned with both adultery and murder, why then did he ask God to forgive him of his sins? Why would he utter these words in Psalm 38?

      There is no soundness in my flesh
      because of your indignation;
      there is no health in my bones
      because of my sin.
      4 For my iniquities have gone over my head;
      like a heavy burden, they are too heavy for me

      Now, here is a man close to God, have a relationship with God and by Gods own testimony is a man after His own heart. But yet when he failed to uphold his righteousness and committed grievous sins, he asked for forgiveness. Does his confession of his sin nullifies his salvation? or does it affirm it? I believe it affirms it, because how can a believer be true if he / she is not confronted of his error when he/she does wrong? Why did Nathaniel the prophet publicly rebuked him for his own sins?
      Here's are some practical questions:
      In your own life, do you feel remorse or sorrowful when you watch pornographic material online? how about if you out of anger get mad at your spouse or children? do you not feel convicted to say sorry and confess to God and to your family members and make things right? How about if you commit adultery, will you not also not feel 'sinful' as David does?
      A true believer does. Because a true believer practices righteousness. How can a believer practice righteousness if they do not need to acknowledge their sins? How then can we know an individual is save except the way they live their lives.

    4. 2) In 1 John 3, God made a clear description of who is saved and unsaved. HE boiled it down the following:

      a)whoever practices sinning is of the devil and thus unsaved
      b)whoever is practices righteousness is righteous
      c)no one born of God practices sinning

      Therefore, a believer has to KNOW what sins are in order to avoid them. He has to KNOW what to NOT practice. This is why the Holy Spirit through Paul taught the Corinthian church to repent. 1 Corinthians 5. Let's not forget that he asked them why they are not mourning and seem to be proud that one of them has his mother in law as wife. He rebuked them for their lack of insight of what is sinful. In order for them not to 'practice' it. I know what you are thinking, "well, the person committed that sin is not a believer", this is true. But the church also committed a sin for their rejoicing of this sin and their lack of mourning it. Who then taught the church to not do this, Paul or the Holy Spirit through Paul?

    5. 3) Just because a believer know that they are a sinner and have sin DOES NOT MEAN they have entered the gates of theological error. In fact, by knowing you have sinned gives a greater appreciation for the saving work of Jesus. In Romans 7, you read Paul struggle with knowing his own sins. The fact that he wants to do good but he seems to do wrong. He wants to do right but somehow or something (his own sins) prevents him from doing so. These are not the words of a non believer but rather a believer who got so close to God to know who they really are. They know the 'sin' that is in their body. It is a dilemma of every believer that I know, including myself. We all want to do better for God, but we seem to fumble the ball all the time. Thanks be to God that helps us get back up and teaches us the correct way.

      I am not saying that a believer should moped around because they are a sinner. It's true that in Jesus Christ, we have been forgiven for ALL of our sins, past, present, and future. But it's also true that just as much we KNOW that we are forgiven of these sins, we are much more aware of the SINS that we currently commit. Not to condemn us but to show us what we were saved from and mature us in Christ. Meaning, if we know what displeasing and sinful action we do, we will turn away from it and teach others not to do the same. For we practice righteousness.


    6. 4) I don't believe your interpretation of the churches in Revelation is accurate. You seem to believe that those letters are not intended for the believers but for non believers. I don't know how you can believe that. In reading Revelation, the letter was intended for the "churches". When did God ever call a group of non believers His church?
      If you read Revelation, you will find this verses at every church letter:
      He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

      There are many more examples, but here are my main points. I'll stop here. Its late, and it actually took me much moooore longer than I hope to reply in this post.
      I hope that you look into these and try to see what the scriptures say. I will also return the favor and re-read your post and study the scriptures to see if you are right and the things I need to learn in my understanding of Scriptures. Sounds to me you are a man that reads and knows your bible well. Though I may not agree with most of them, I hope we can both learn from one another. In hope that someday in heaven I get to shake your hand and be thankful for those times were we debated on your post. For "iron sharpens iron"..
      In regards to Dr. Michael Brown, his main concern is that many so called Christians have accepted the blood of Christ as a payment of their own sins and used it as a license TO sin. This is why he used the term 'Hyper-Grace'. This a huge error in the church. People shouldn't come to Jesus and say "I believe, forgive me, I repent". 5 minutes later find them committing adultery and watching porn. It is as equally rediculous for Mary Magdalene to go back to adultery right after she was forgiven of her sin and preach that her sins are forgiven. The words of Jesus Christ "go and sin no more.." would have been completely useless.

      God Bless you Michael
      FYI: I did not proof read my reply, its way too late here and I need to get some sleep. Im really sorry for the readers if they find terrible grammar and spelling mistakes.

    7. 1) You make the classic mistake of thinking David was reborn. David did not have the Holy Spirit in Him. We are part of the post-cross, post-resurrection, indwelling Holy Spirit new covenant David was not. It is evident in the Psalms that the Holy Spirit would come & go for David. Now we have God who never leaves us & we are righteous by Christ's work on the cross.
      The word "forgive" in both the old & new testament pictures a "taking away" of a burden. Jesus "took away" our sins, our burden is gone, we are forgiven.
      We don't have to "uphold our righteousness" because Christ is our righteousness.

      The word convict regards guilt & shame. God is my Father & my wonderful counselor meaning He does guide & correct me but He never shames me or uses guilt to motivate me. SEVEN times God promises to His people, "Whoever trusts in God will never be put to shame.” (Isaiah 28:16, Romans 9:33, 10:11, 1 Peter 2:6, Joel 2:26-27, Isaiah 45:17, 54:4)
      I do need to mend relationships with other people but I never confess sins to God & it never ever hinders my relationship with Him. In fact it is immeasurably better than when I did believe I needed to confess sins.

    8. 2) What do you think "practicing" is? How much practicing is too much practicing? Are we in constant danger of becoming unborn of God (aborted) if we practice too much sin?
      This is what I said about 1 John 3 in the post, "1 John 3:9, 5:18 say a Christian's spirit cannot sin." Key word is spirit.

      My stance on 1 John 3:6,9 & 1 John 5:18 is that it speaks of the Christian's spirit, their true identity. It says, "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." The only part of us that is born of God is our spirit, Jesus makes that clear in John 3. That is why we are told to "walk by the spirit." There is no doubt to me that these scriptures speak of spiritual identity & not of temporal flesh based morality.
      If these scriptures meant "Christians cannot continually practice sin" how do you define continually? Is that to be left up to man's interpretation? How I see these scriptures don't leave a gaping whole of "how much sin is enough sin to be considered "continually" or "practicing"? The interpretation that this means "Christians cannot continually sin" points to man's performance in the flesh rather than the rebirth of the spirit through the work of Christ.

      As my response to 1) indicates, just because I believe God does not charge us with sin or pour on guilt or shame does not mean He stops acting like a father, guiding us & correcting us to benefit us & those around us. God can utterly love us apart from our actions yet still address our actions as a loving Father. You were saved by God not counting your sins against you why then do you think you cannot also live & walk with God that way?

    9. 3)You make a lot of assumptions about the Christian life regarding sin that will keep you from seeing what I'm saying & living even freer & more victorious in Christ.

      I don't have the dilemma Paul describes in Romans 7. Romans 7 speaks of what it is like to live under the law & to walk by the flesh. Romans 7 happens before Romans 8.
      In Romans 7 Paul says, "Who will SET ME FREE from the body of this death?" Read Romans 8 & you will see how you have been set free so that you can live free. We are free! Seriously, read that question then read the whole of Romans 8.

    10. 4) I'm not saying the letters weren't intended for the assemblies. I'm saying that there are lost people (who Jesus called tares/goats) among those assemblies that needed to be addressed as well. Again walk into any church today & there is a 99.999999% chance not everyone there is saved. Why would God not also address these lost people who desperately need Him?

      You call it a HUGE error. I don't know of any person who treats grace as a license to sin. Perhaps it is those who live under law who choose to label virtually everything as sin (even when the law didn't) forcing that idea upon people.

      Thanks for the replies & your kind words.

    11. Wanted to address one more thing.
      It is not my flesh based efforts to keep commands & sin less that change me for the good. "God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him" (Philippians 2:13).
      When we try to take over for God & improve ourselves rather than follow His wise Spirit we're walking by the flesh. This is all much more of a process than many are willing to admit. We're taught to have instant results by TRYING REALLY HARD to avoid sin & keep commands. Finding out what is sin & trying to avoid sin is walking by the flesh & under the law (the tree of knowledge of good & evil instead of the tree of life). God our Father knows what we need to change & WHEN that change needs to take place. He knows we may have 5 more things to learn & 7 more things to unlearn before we could even begin to successfully avoid certain behaviors.

    12. Thanks for replying back.

      My points were very simple. I was simply trying to prove the following

      1) A true believer after accepting Jesus Christ can and may sin
      2) God does condemned a true believer for the sin that he has committed. For Jesus paid for all the sins
      3) God directs and rebukes the true believer of the sin he has committed through the Holy Spirit
      4) A TRUE BELIEVER repents of the sins he makes and walks in the right way. He pursues righteousness and wants to stands the right way with God.

      With that in mind.. here's my reply

      1) I don't know any individual who thinks David is not reborn. God himself included the Psalms that he wrote under the Holy Spirit as part of the bible. If you believe he is not reborn that's on you.

      Just because David was rebuked and "shamed" for his guilt it doesn't mean it's bad. Actually, its the characteristics of a true father to MEASURE the amount of discipline he gives to each children based on what they need. David needed to be rebuked publicly through Nathan, because he is a king and a public figure. People needed to know that what he did was NOT acceptable to God and he walked in SIN privately but God publicly rebuked him.

      2)My point is simple. If you HABITUALLY SIN, and look for sin and apply sin in your life and it's very clear you are not a believer. That's how to tell that you are not saved. For ex: if you claim to be saved and repented on your sins and I see you walking in a Strip Club or getting a prostitute, there are always 2 outcomes

      a) You are a young Christian and didn't know that getting your grove on with a hooker and going to strip club is a sin.

      b) You know it is a sin but yet disregard those commandments and continue to LIVE the WAY YOU WANT TO LIVE. Outside of the scriptures.

      A TRUE BELIEVER can be seen in a). Once he is taught under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of what is right and wrong in regards to scripture, they REPENT. How long does it take? maybe some longer than others, maybe some are immediate. But the point is they REPENT. The people in b) does not, they continue to live under sin and does not want to listen to what the bible teaches and just continue their life. Because they believer Jesus died for their sin and therefore live by Sin. This is the error of hyper-grace. There are people living like this.

    13. 3)My point with Romans 7 is to show you that IT IS POSSIBLE for a Christian to be sin free Judicially but be AWARE of his OWN sin. That was my point.

      Not to condemn the man but make him aware of the Grace that came through Jesus Christ. I believer you and I are on the same point in this case. We believe that we are sinners and therefore so THANKFUL of what Jesus has done. Both can be present at the life of a TRUE BELIEVER.

      a) A TRUE BELIEVER is always aware of the grace that came and saved him
      b) A TRUE BELIEVER can be aware of his sin here on earth for he lives on his flesh
      c) A TRUE BELIEVER will always look at the future and Jesus for hope knowing that someday He will come and annihilate sin in our mortal bodies.

      This is the hope of the True Believer. That is why I called it a dilemma. But a beautiful dilemma nonetheless. A person who knows they cant do anything good and the only good that is in them is Jesus.

      4) You are right that in a group of church that not 100% of people are saved. But in Revelation, God did address those who have not soiled their clothes the ones that have. I don't believe the people He addressed are between the unsaved and the saved. It is all for the saved ones but out of those saved ones, who is walking right and who is walking wrong.

      Read the words below, Jesus addressed all of them to REMEMBER what they RECEIVED and HEARD. KEEP IT and REPENT. Then He said that there are FEW who have not SOILED their GARMENTS.

      He told some to repent and do right and uplifted those who have walked and done right

      Revelation 3:3-4
      3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy

    14. Here's my last thought:

      I am not trying to say that a believer should walk in egg shells in terms of their relationship with God.

      I am also not saying that a believer should "PERFORM" a life that's so holy that all they do is wake up, not talk, sit and read their bible. Because they are afraid that they will sin.

      I am also not saying that a believer should TRY REALLY REALLY HARD NOT TO SIN. For we are perfected in Jesus and paid the penalty of us all.

      I think you and I both agree in that.

      This is where we differ.

      The Holy Spirit can and will show a TRUE BELIEVER of his sin

      If a believer does sin, due to his lack of knowledge that it is a SIN, the Holy Spirit will guide that individual to repent of that sin and walk in proper way with God.

      If a believer REFUSES to repent to something minor sin (sin not leading to death), then we can pray for that person to repent. As a brother, we should help him see the light of scriptures in what he is doing.

      If a believer is HABITUALLY sins and lives and looks for sin, then we can identify that believer as a NON BELIEVER and should be thrown outside of the church.

      In regards again to DR. Michael Brown, the main concern is that there are GROUPS out there preaching the forgiveness of sin and they themselves practice and teach others to HABITUALLY sin. Claiming that all SIN that they do is FORGIVEN, therefore they can fornicate, lie, steal, cheat, beat on their wives, beat on children, shoot people because they are FORGIVEN.

      By posting your post above, whether it is your intention or not, you basically condoned and agreed with those people.

      I don't know your heart or your intentions, I pray it is a TRUE heart and in line with the scripture. I pray you are not HABITUALLY sinning. But I do want to thank you for your post. Your stance is well taken, that a believer such as myself SHOULD NEVER EVER fear of coming near to God as our father. But I also do believer that you are one step short of realizing the full gospel.

      Good Luck and God Bless. I pray you would not be in error in your walk with God. Keep searching the scriptures and so would I. Like the noble Bereans.

      I do believe you have a passion for the truth. I pray that it will lead you and your family to the full truth of the gospel.


    15. You, like most Christians, have little to no concept of what it means to be "reborn." It is people's spirits that are reborn as Jesus said in John 3. This was made possible by the death & resurrection of Jesus. Your "new man/new creation" is what has been born. David knew God but under the old covenant people could not be reborn because Jesus had not sent the Holy Spirit to live inside of people. "The Spirit of truth will be with you forever You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you (when I send Him)." (John 14:16-17)

      Seriously I showed you SEVEN places where God PROMISES to never shame us yet you still go on writing as if He does?

      2) What defines habitual? The bible doesn't tell us. You're even double minded in your explaination. You say "it's very clear you are not a believer if you habitually sin" yet out of the other side of your mouth you say "a young Christian who is ignorant can habitually sin" then you say "a believer can habitually sin but he always repents"

      3) I a billion percent agree than a Christian can be aware of their sin but that is not God's best. God tells us in Hebrews 10 that "once someone knows they have been cleansed by the perfect sacrifice of Jesus they will no longer be conscious of sin" (Read Hebrews 9-10 to see). We don't need to be sin conscious to be love conscious. Under hyper-grace we are hyper aware of how our actions effect our brothers & we lovingly seek to mend whatever we've broken.

      You still make so many sad assumptions not knowing that you are free from sin now & don't have to struggle against it.

      4) I'm not going to address the specifics of which verses I think were addressed to Christians vs. non-Christians in Revelation

    16. I said the Father would address our negative behaviors as He sees fit but He will not "charge us with sin." Romans 4:8 says, "Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says, "God does not charge people with sin." Its your choice if you want to utterly ignore those scriptures & those in the main post because they don't fit into your current beliefs. God does not judicially charge us with sin.

      I utterly did not agree with those people & because of your accusation I must be harsh. WHERE OH WHERE DID I TEACH OTHERS TO HABITUALLY SIN? Quote it back to me!

      As I said in another comment, here are some things I said in the post that you must have missed or else how could you think such a thing:
      "God is not blind to how the deeds of my flesh affect myself & others."
      "The very reason God seeks to help His children live their life better is because He loves them."
      "If God "didn't like WHO He saw" when He looked at His children He wouldn't care about them destroying themselves by forgetting about His love & putting themselves under the law."
      "God loves you & wants to help you."
      "God didn't love the legalism of the Galatians because IT hurt THEM."
      "God wants us to pursue relational forgiveness among the brothers."
      "God teaches His children the truth, He leads them out of falsehood, He corrects their false beliefs."
      "Grace, which is literally God's loving opinion of us(!), teaches us to walk away from ungodliness and worldly passions."
      "God can love & correct someone to help them out of harmful behaviors without having to lay guilt on them, that is in fact the only way God does it."
      "The real way the Holy Spirit purifies our minds, beliefs, & bodies is by testifying of Christ, His love for us, & His finished work on our behalf."

      You yourself said all sin is forgiven. I ask you how on earth does me teaching that "our loving Father chooses not to hold what we do against us" equate to me endorsing unloving & vile actions?
      You are seriously messed up in the head if that is what you got out of my post. Don't take the "This guy is wrong so if he is stern with me I don't have to listen to him" stance. This is a serious warning: THERE IS SOMETHING HORRIBLY DAMAGED ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS OR WAY OF THINKING IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAW IN MY POST.

      What is the one step of the full gospel that I am short of? Define it for me & while you define it consider the fact that you may be adding that step in where it doesn't belong.

  12. Michael Reyes, what Dr. Brown and his ilk are saying loud and clear, is that they don't really believe that Christ died to take away the sins of the world as clearly laid out in scripture. Heb 6 and 10 are written to address this very issue of not thinking Christ's sacrifice is enough. No getting around it. Until they repent of unbelief there is no point in discussing this with them. Pearls/swine etc. :-)